Sub-Genres

[Confusing conclusion]

Hardcore and Grindcore (sp?) ... how would you describe these

"sounds"

and are they at all related to industrial?

Short answer: No, if...
Long answer: Yes, but...

Hard/grindcore are very "extreme" sounds (or they were back in the
day). Alot of people from the "hard music" scene weren't just
interested in "loud and noisy", but "as loud and noisy as possible".
The industrial scene started when people into extreme music, like
grind, started using the new option of electronic instrumentation.
There are exceptions, but like "rock" wasn't really possible before
they came up with amplifiers, "industrial" wasn't really possible
before music went electric/digital. So, industrial is like punk or
metal, but on a keyboard. Alot of industri/noise acts are very "punk"
when it comes down to it. Look at whitehouse. What's more punk than
pulling down your pants and going fuck you!! while screaming and
running around on stage?

the back of the CD had a note from

experimental, ambient, industrial, hardcore, death metal, grindcore,
noise, and a few other types.
I've heard a few DJs talk about "core" before, but I still don't see
where it fits into anything.

Just "core"? Lots of "cores" out there. Breakcore or speedcore, eg,
fit perfectly into the industrial label. It's largely electronic, it's
noisy, why shouldn't it?

In particular, I'd find examples of songs

or bands the most helpful and getting a feel for a label

What? You mean, like a label for music, "techno", "industrial",
etcetera? Or a label for records, like "ant-zen", "tesco", "sony",
etcetera?

, but again ...

maybe I'm posting to the wrong group.
Thanks,
-Michael
n.p. hpp :: hard pounding percussion

[Girl the Bourgeois Individualist]

Hardcore and Grindcore (sp?) ... how would you describe these "sounds"
and are they at all related to industrial?

I'm not quite sure about the origins of hardcore as a term, I've generally
known it to be a general term for US punk with metal elements, everything from
Bad Religion to Helmet.

Grindcore, on the other hand, was largely a post-punk style in the UK, fast,
noisy and extreme metal/punk mix typified by Napalm Death (not a million miles
from Death Metal). As far as connections to industrial (in the broad sense),
there have been some with the likes of Godflesh and Scorn, both of whom used
grindcore elements (Scorn in their earliest days), and Scorn grew out of
Napalm Death, having brought industrial elements into the band.

Girl.

[brent jackson]

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist

Hardcore and Grindcore (sp?) ... how would you describe these "sounds"
and are they at all related to industrial?

I'm not quite sure about the origins of hardcore as a term, I've generally
known it to be a general term for US punk with metal elements, everything from
Bad Religion to Helmet.

afaik, the term originated as an adjective to describe punk bands who
eschewed the poppier elements of punk/new wave and kept it simple and
intense - "they're real hardcore punk". it was mainly a west coast thing in
the early days - the germs, black flag, doa, etc.. later, it jumped coasts
and gave us the d.c. hardcore scene (bad brains, minor threat, etc.). metal
had little to do with hardcore back then.

grindcore, at least in the original napalm death version, is basically
hardcore taken to extremes - faster, louder, and shorter (albums with 20
songs a side were not unusual). the vocals were more metal growl/screams,
but the lyrics and attitude were very punk. but grindcore was embraced by
the metal scene and is now more a metal subgenre than punk. anytime you
hear a burst of 200+ bpm drumming in the middle of a metal song, it's
grindcore showing its influcnce.

there's no real connection to industrial though.

-brent
now playing: biopsy _third stroke_

[Crudbreeder]

Post by brent jackson

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist

Hardcore and Grindcore (sp?) ... how would you describe these "sounds"
and are they at all related to industrial?

I'm not quite sure about the origins of hardcore as a term, I've generally
known it to be a general term for US punk with metal elements, everything from
Bad Religion to Helmet.

afaik, the term originated as an adjective to describe punk bands who
eschewed the poppier elements of punk/new wave and kept it simple and
intense - "they're real hardcore punk". it was mainly a west coast thing in
the early days - the germs, black flag, doa, etc.. later, it jumped coasts
and gave us the d.c. hardcore scene (bad brains, minor threat, etc.). metal
had little to do with hardcore back then.
grindcore, at least in the original napalm death version, is basically
hardcore taken to extremes - faster, louder, and shorter (albums with 20
songs a side were not unusual). the vocals were more metal growl/screams,
but the lyrics and attitude were very punk. but grindcore was embraced by
the metal scene and is now more a metal subgenre than punk. anytime you
hear a burst of 200+ bpm drumming in the middle of a metal song, it's
grindcore showing its influcnce.

"*core" is basically a naming thing parasiting (sp?) on "hardcore".

"hardcore" basically meaning "the hardest version" of something .

(Originally refering to the "hardcore punk" of the late 70's -early
80's)


np: Foetus - Today I started slogging again
(and no, futurepop doesn't have anything to do with "industrial")
--
"doggystyle isn't just for americans, doggystyle is for everyone!"
~Jesster

[xcog]

i know the style of hardcore you're referring to, but i wanted to
point out that there is another sub-genre called "hardcore" out there
(i've usually seen it called "happy hardcore"). i don't even know how
to describe it since i don't listen to it, i just know it's out there.

also...i found out there's another genre of music called "industrial"
which is some type of dark gabber...but i think that term got coined
after the style WE all call industrial.

i think it's all just very confusing. especially all the types of
"core". i've heard just about everything...rapcore, speedcore,
grindcore, metalcore, grindcore, vomitcore (seriously!), breakcore and
how many others i'm forgetting. i don't know why the term "core" gets
used so much, but i usually associate it with some type of
experimentation in that genre. breakcore is basically experimental
breakbeats. rapcore (as i heard it used, this may be wrong), is that
rap/rock hybrid that dominated top 40 radio for so long. again, some
type of experimentation.

i'm glad you guys know the history behind all these genres tho...it
was an incredibly interesting read.

[Michael Mierzwa]

Post by xcog
i know the style of hardcore you're referring to, but i wanted to
point out that there is another sub-genre called "hardcore" out there
(i've usually seen it called "happy hardcore"). i don't even know how
to describe it since i don't listen to it, i just know it's out there.

Yeah, I've heard the term happy hardcore before as well. And again, had
no idea what it context it was supposed to imply.

Post by xcog
also...i found out there's another genre of music called "industrial"
which is some type of dark gabber...but i think that term got coined
after the style WE all call industrial.

So what is dark gabber? (You just knew somebody would have to ask that?)

Post by xcog
i think it's all just very confusing. especially all the types of
"core". i've heard just about everything...rapcore, speedcore,
grindcore, metalcore, grindcore, vomitcore (seriously!), breakcore and
how many others i'm forgetting.

Completely confusing. Why I asked too.

I think there is _some_ use in coming up with various sub-genre names,
because it may be helpful in describing a new artists sound (which in
turn might be enough for somebody to buy something of theirs). But at
the same time, when things are losely applied, the variation between
similar artists in a sub-genre, have in my case made me timid about
purchasing a CD unheard based on just a label name. I think this is a
bad thing, because frankly I usually like to cross sample music and
think many different genres and sub-genres have lots to offer other
types of music (as well as my personal collection).

Post by xcog
i'm glad you guys know the history behind all these genres tho...it
was an incredibly interesting read.

Totally! I appreciate all the replies!

-Michael

[Girl the Bourgeois Individualist]

Post by Michael Mierzwa

Post by xcog
i know the style of hardcore you're referring to, but i wanted to
point out that there is another sub-genre called "hardcore" out there
(i've usually seen it called "happy hardcore"). i don't even know how
to describe it since i don't listen to it, i just know it's out there.

Yeah, I've heard the term happy hardcore before as well. And again, had
no idea what it context it was supposed to imply.

Happy Hardcore has nothing to do with the forms of hardcore punk previously
described. It's a spin-off of hardcore rave, which was pretty much the
development of a style from a scene (rave music isn't really a style, it's all
the different styles - acid house, techno, etc - played at raves back in the
late 80s/early 90s - just check out any of the mix/compilation albums from the
time). Hardcore rave was basically shit fast sample-based dance music, early
Prodigy and Messiah would have been two of the most popular in the day. Happy
hardcore was a fairly naff spin-off, based around ever increasing bpms and
samples of cartoons and the theme music from children's TV shows (basically
music for overgrown kids on tons of drugs). It was accidentally kicked off by
the Prodigy when they released 'Charly', which featured a sample from a road
safety ad used ironically to reference cocaine. It was everywhere for a few
years, mainly a UK thing (which would probably mean nothing to those in the US
who'd never seen kids programmes like Rhubarb and Custard or Rainbow).

And then, of course, there's hardcore rap, which is completely different
again!

Girl.

[Girl the Bourgeois Individualist]

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist

Post by Michael Mierzwa
Yeah, I've heard the term happy hardcore before as well. And again, had
no idea what it context it was supposed to imply.

Happy Hardcore has nothing to do with the forms of hardcore punk previously
described. It's a spin-off of hardcore rave, which was pretty much the
development of a style from a scene (rave music isn't really a style, it's all
the different styles - acid house, techno, etc - played at raves back in the
late 80s/early 90s - just check out any of the mix/compilation albums from the
time). Hardcore rave was basically shit fast sample-based dance music, early
Prodigy and Messiah would have been two of the most popular in the day.

Thinking about this a bit more, there are, of course, links to industrial (how
about a game of 8 or less steps to Throbbing Gristle???) One of the main
hardcore rave pioneers was Praga Khan, going solo from New Beat supremos Lords
of Acid. New Beat, as some will know, was started by DJs playing EBM (largely
A Split Second and Nitzer Ebb) 45s at 33rpm. And EBM, of course, particularly
Nitzer Ebb, was a major post-industrial development. And that's not mentioning
Psychic TV's seminal influence on UK acid house :-)

Girl.

[xcog]

Post by Michael Mierzwa
So what is dark gabber? (You just knew somebody would have to ask that?)

damn, i was hoping noone would ask, hehehe. i had stumbled across
this music shop online (i think they were out of poland) which had
records for sale calling them "industrial". i wanted to post the link
so you could hear it yourself about what i mean by dark gabber, but i
can't find the site anymore!! grr... anyways, gabber is kind of like
powernoise, except usually a lot faster. and as far as calling it
"dark", i guess that's just a personal call by me. just listening to
it it sounds a little "darker" or more "evil"....kind of hard to
explain. anyone who wants to bail me out or post some examples, help!

[Jamie Rosen]

Post by xcog
anyways, gabber is kind of like
powernoise, except usually a lot faster.

I'd say some powernoise sounds like gabber, rather than the other way
around, since gabber predates power noise. I'd call gabber and
hardcore techno influences on some of the more dancefloor-oriented power
noise artists.

And then there's noisecore, which takes the two to an extreme and which I
have to leave a club if they start playing. I *like* my hearing.

Post by xcog
and as far as calling it
"dark", i guess that's just a personal call by me. just listening to
it it sounds a little "darker" or more "evil"....kind of hard to
explain. anyone who wants to bail me out or post some examples, help!

Are you perhaps thinking of something like terrorcore?

--

Jamie Rosen's e-book _Vessel of Heaven_ is now available from Jintsu Etexts
Check it out at http://www.eggplant-productions.com/jintsu

[Veni Vidi Exii]

Post by Jamie Rosen
Are you perhaps thinking of something like terrorcore?

Most likely. When I think gabber, I think Paul Elstak and The
Masochist ... and they're not scary in the way that he's
implying.

[Girl the Bourgeois Individualist]

Post by xcog

Post by Michael Mierzwa
So what is dark gabber? (You just knew somebody would have to ask that?)

damn, i was hoping noone would ask, hehehe. i had stumbled across
this music shop online (i think they were out of poland) which had
records for sale calling them "industrial". i wanted to post the link
so you could hear it yourself about what i mean by dark gabber, but i
can't find the site anymore!! grr... anyways, gabber is kind of like
powernoise, except usually a lot faster.

I've got a friend in a band (well, two people and laptops) called LowTech (on
Industrial Strength Records) who play a seriously fucked up, ear-drum
bursting, mix of gabber, techno and industrial (more yer 90s kind than old
school, he goes as far as sampling Ministry). . Heh, after their Dublin gig,
the organiser dragged the Cruxshadows along to see them, they didn't seem big
fans :-)

Girl.

[minya]

Post by xcog

Post by Michael Mierzwa
So what is dark gabber? (You just knew somebody would have to ask that?)

damn, i was hoping noone would ask, hehehe. i had stumbled across
this music shop online (i think they were out of poland) which had
records for sale calling them "industrial". i wanted to post the link
so you could hear it yourself about what i mean by dark gabber, but i
can't find the site anymore!! grr... anyways, gabber is kind of like
powernoise, except usually a lot faster. and as far as calling it
"dark", i guess that's just a personal call by me. just listening to
it it sounds a little "darker" or more "evil"....kind of hard to
explain. anyone who wants to bail me out or post some examples, help!

I've been listening to shitloads of hardcore techno lately, so I'm in
a good situation to help.

Good place to start is Bloody Fist (http://www.bloodyfist.com.au);
everything on this label rules. Nasenbluten's full-length Dog Control
rules especially hard.

Then head over to Rebel Scum (http://www.rebelscum.co.uk) and buy as
much as you can. Buy anything with the DJ Producer's name on it (and
Hellfish for that matter). Producer & Hellfish are IMO the best of the
UK hip-hop hardcore scene. Totally awesome dark shit. Traffik is very
good as well, but he's stopped producing.

On the American tip, Addict Records will give you what you need
(http://www.addictrecords.com/) though most of what they release is
more breakcore than hardcore. Pick up Doormouse's new album (Freaked
Out Mess) and the Bowelcore reissue and have fun.

This should be a good start. Let me know if you want more.

[minya]

Post by minya
I've been listening to shitloads of hardcore techno lately, so I'm in
a good situation to help.

Oh, I forgot to mention Manu Le Malin (and his French buddies, Radium,
Micropoint, etc.) ... make sure you check him out, too. He has an
awesome mix CD (of which I'm still searching for an original copy)
called "Biomechanik 2" (there's a #1 also) that features Doormouse,
Converter, Producer, Nasenbluten, and more all mixed together. Highly
recommended. If you can find it.

[broken toy for a lonely girl]

Girl the Bourgeois Individualist is a broken toy, for a lonely

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist

Hardcore and Grindcore (sp?) ... how would you describe these

"sounds"

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist

and are they at all related to industrial?

I'm not quite sure about the origins of hardcore as a term, I've generally
known it to be a general term for US punk with metal elements,

everything from

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist
Bad Religion to Helmet.
Grindcore, on the other hand, was largely a post-punk style in the UK, fast,
noisy and extreme metal/punk mix typified by Napalm Death (not a million miles
from Death Metal). As far as connections to industrial (in the

broad sense),

Post by Girl the Bourgeois Individualist
there have been some with the likes of Godflesh and Scorn, both of whom used
grindcore elements (Scorn in their earliest days), and Scorn grew out of
Napalm Death, having brought industrial elements into the band.

Let's not forget Bile as well, who IMO, sound like a mix of TMIATT
era Ministry crossed with Godflesh, for better or worse...

[Icon.]

Post by Confusing conclusion
The industrial scene started when people into extreme music, like
grind, started using the new option of electronic instrumentation.

no, it didnt..

[Paul's penis is HELL, boy.]

Post by Icon.

Post by Confusing conclusion
The industrial scene started when people into extreme music, like
grind, started using the new option of electronic instrumentation.

hahahhahahhahahahahaha::breath::hahahhahahhahahahahahha

Post by Icon.
no, it didnt..

--
np: nothin'

AIM: WhoKilledtheJAMs
dukncovr at kmfdm dot com
http://www.rit.edu/~pmy5192
http://fleischbackstein.iuma.com
http://brb.whereshitler.com


g4sm4sk: oh yes, according to the brb site,
you are going to be in the Electronic Music
Hall of Fame in Tamaqua, PA

[Paul's penis is HELL, boy.]

Post by Confusing conclusion
The industrial scene started when people into extreme music, like
grind, started using the new option of electronic instrumentation.

I think you'll find that industrial started when people into extreme
performance, started playing around with machines and accidentally created
music.

let's also bear in mind that pansy-ass punk rock wasn't
anti-establishment *enough* for Throbbing Gristle.

...and you're right, the music was a side-effect too.
--
np: nothin'

AIM: WhoKilledtheJAMs
dukncovr at kmfdm dot com
http://www.rit.edu/~pmy5192
http://fleischbackstein.iuma.com
http://brb.whereshitler.com


g4sm4sk: oh yes, according to the brb site,
you are going to be in the Electronic Music
Hall of Fame in Tamaqua, PA